Your Investing Process – Part 1

Your Investing Process – Part 1

The Smart Take:

Do you have an investment process? Most people don’t understand their advisor’s process (if they have one). Yet, in investing, you cannot control your investment results, but you can control your process, which should lead to better results over time. Listen to Kevin give you a high level of a science-based investing process you can understand without having to get a graduate degree in Finance.

Listen below or through your favorite podcast service to find out. Prefer to read? No problem, show transcription is below too.

For related content, click here to listen to Episode 14 on Expected Investment Return Forecasts.

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The Host:

Kevin Kroskey – AboutContact

Intro:                     Welcome to Retire Smarter with Kevin Kroskey. Find answers to your toughest questions and get educated about the financial world. It’s time to Retire Smarter. Hello and welcome once again to Retire Smarter.

Walter:                 I’m Walter Storeholt alongside Kevin Kroskey, president and wealth advisor at True Wealth Design. Hey Kevin, how are you this week?

Kevin:                   Hey Walter, I am fantastic. We got NFL football season is right on the doorstep here. Finally here. Yes, we had kids that started back to school here just this week, last week. I’ve heard a few stories from friends of my age. That the Mommy’s had a little celebratory toast after the kids got onto the school bus on day one. And you know, like woo. Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah, it feels good to have that transition back to maybe the normal life or did, were you enjoying sort of that summer lifestyle and a little bit different flow? You know, my summer was actually is fairly busy with work, but you know, my wife, uh, so we have two kids that are both not school age at least, uh, not until next week. And kind of a small wrinkle, but my daughter’s going to school and there’s a new school building in the school and it’s a couple of weeks behind, uh, construction.

Walter:                 So, her school is starting later than everybody else. But shall we start in kindergarten here? Lucky her. Yes. She is incredibly excited to ride the big yellow bus so she has some cool, yeah, I for me, I mean I hated riding the bus. We’ll see how long does it last. But uh, it’s good if it lasts for a year, I think you could consider yourself lucky there. Yes. Mommy, uh, is going to take her in on her first date and driver and she goes, she was not having it. She’s like, I want to ride the bus. So we got her to, uh, accept that Mommy’s going to take her in via car day one. Awesome. That is very cool. Well, it sounds like a lot moving and shaking in the Kroskey household for sure. And we’re going to have a lot moving and shaking here on the podcast and another one of the world’s worst segues of all time, but we are going to have a good two part series a launching today.

Walter:                 We’re going to be talking about, as Kevin described it before we hit the record button today. Egg Heady conversation on today’s show, but you mean that Kevin in the in the best way possible. It means that there’s some thought. There is some, a method to the madness. I would say that that could even be a title for today’s show would be a method to the madness. I’m looking forward to hearing from you today about and on the part two of this podcast as well, sort of diving into the investment work that really happens in your client’s portfolios.

Kevin:                   Think about when you buy a car. You do your homework, maybe you look at the true car price. You know you can go to consumer reports or Edmunds, start looking up some car reviews, you know, say, Hey, I want to buy and mid-size SUV. Let me see at the top 10 list for that class. I’m going to go down to the dealership now kind of equipped with all this information. Now I’m actually going to go test drive it. I’m going to get that wonderful new car smell and open it up as I merge onto the highway and make sure that I can pass if and when needed. And there you go. And we’ve kind of become accustomed to that. You know, you can go into, well at least today we can go into retail stores. We’ll see, we’ll see if they still exist in another 10 or 20 years. Thank you Amazon. But you know, whenever you’re going to a professional service provider, be a financial advisor, a doctor, lawyer, what have you, you really buying the skills and the reputation and the knowledge and the wisdom of that person.

Kevin:                   And not only that, but they should have a process that kind of underlies all of that. So when I thought about today, I mean we just wrapped up doing some investment work for the portfolios that we use from our clients and their financial planning and just went through the process and I figured, you know, it’s probably going to be good to share with people. So whether you know we have current clients that are listening to it, it’s going to go into a little bit in terms of how the sausage is made. But I will do my very best to explain it well and keep it at a fairly high level. And also for anybody that was just tuning in and isn’t a client it too. We’ll give you a good idea of what a process looks like. And I can say from being in a few different, well you know, being in the business for a while, being involved in the financial planning association here in Northeast Ohio and southwest Florida, being in several study groups, I was pretty dumbfounded just to find that most advisors really don’t go through this.

Kevin:                   I would say, well, let’s be honest here, the bar for being a professional is set low in my industry unfortunately. So it’s continually getting better. There’s a lot of good people, but there’s a lot of people that have room to grow. Let’s be kind and put it that way. And usually they’re just concerned about, you know, kind of getting a client or what have you and maybe selling some sort of product that sounds too good to be true and turns out to be that way. Or you know, that product is maybe an investment portfolio or investment manager with some sort of track record that, you know, they really can’t call on it, pull back the onion layers a few layers and really get down into the weeds on it and understand it.

Kevin:                   And I can tell you if you haven’t really done this yourself, it’s easy to kind of get sidetracked, fall victim of some of the noise and some of the marketing hype that’s out there around these things. So my hope is again to kind of peel back the onion layer, walk somebody, you know, whoever’s tuning in and listening through that process of you know, we do it, which is a very science based way. Just like everything that we do to go ahead and do investment planning. And you know when you think about your investments it always comes back to your plan. And step one, whenever you’re thinking about this as well, you know, if you haven’t put together a financial plan, you know that is step one. You need to kind of go back and do that. We’ve talked about a lot of aspects of financial planning or retirement planning process over the podcast episodes, but we go through that in detail and retirement rules series that we did at the beginning of, this is probably a good one to go back and listen to you if you haven’t to yet.

Kevin:                   But what we’re going to do today is really presume that you’ve done a financial plan. It’s a good financial plan. You understand what your investment portfolio really needs to do because that financial plan and the cash flows that you know you have to meet to go ahead and live the lifestyle that you want to is the sole purpose of the investment plan. So if you, if you don’t have the sole purpose put in place yet, well again, kind of hit rewind and go back a little bit, but supposing that you’ve already done that, you have a good financial plan in place and now you know, you know how much your investments have to produce and the cash flows that they have to meet. So you can have your retirement spending and supplement any, you know, any amounts in addition to social security or pension or what have you.

Kevin:                   Now we’re going to get into the weeds a little bit and get into this investment process. So when you think about the process in general, you know, I mentioned this a couple of times, but the way that we go about doing it, I would call it science based. And I think that’s important and simple analogy. You know, you’re not going to go out and do financial or portfolio surgery after getting a tip from a friend or reading something online. It’s somebody’s blog. You know, you should really have a much better understanding of history of the historical aspects of financial markets and all kinds of other boring stuff that you probably don’t want to do. Set another way. If you’re going to go and have actual surgery, say from an orthopedic surgeon, you’re, you’re certainly going to Oh, you know, one, somebody that’s board certified that is practicing, you know, time tested, tried and true sorts of methodologies, you know, things.

Kevin:                   Or if you’re going to go, you know, try some sort of new therapy or drug, you know, you’re going to have some sort of peer reviewed article about, you know, this test and this trial. Maybe it was reported in the New England Journal of Medicine. You get it. There’s a heck of a lot more rigor to doing something like that. Then going out and just saying, hey, here’s a supplement that I’m going to buy off of this, you know, shelf from this store down in this seedy little part of town. And you’re not going to do that, you know, at least I hope you’re not going to do that. You’re going to go with the more science based approach. And it’s the same thing that we do when it comes to the financial surgery we’re going to talk about. So one other thing that is important and really of the, I say the overarching thing when it comes to the songs based process and it’s really comes down to your recipe and the ingredients and your recipe is akin to your asset allocation.

Kevin:                   So however you’re going to construct, you know, your mix of stocks and bonds, what kind of bonds, what kind of stocks, domestic or international value or growth, all these different words and some of which we’ll talk about over the next two episodes. But your asset allocation, again, your recipe is going to explain more than 90% of the results that you’re going to get over time. And having good ingredients is certainly important as well. You want good, low cost, well-diversified investments and investments that you know how they’re going to behave. So when you’re combining them into your recipe, you’re getting what you expect to get and not something that ends up being completely different. But a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that the investments themselves, the ingredients are more important than the recipe and science. And this goes back to the 1950s a gentleman by the name of Harry Markowitz, really Kind of the father of modern portfolio theory showed that the owl asset allocation really doesn’t matter most.

Kevin:                   And that was proven later. Uh, it was kind of interesting. He came up with this theory in the fifties but back in the 50s we didn’t have the computing power to approve it. So it was truly theoretical. And I think it was like in the 70s or so that it was finally proven that Harry Markowitz was correct in kind of what he developed. And so he’s really the father of modern portfolio theory and a lot of it’s been refined since then and improved upon. But again, the important thing to take away here is that asset allocation or how you’re combining your investments matters even more than having good investments themselves. So again, kind of back up real quick here. So step one, your financial or retirement plan is certainly the overarching goal for your investment portfolio. Step two, you science-based evidence to construct your portfolio. The ingredients are important, but the recipes even more so.

Kevin:                   And then three you need to implement, monitor and adjust your portfolio. So we’re not going to get into kind of selecting the ingredients. It’s a little bit too in the weeds I think. But I’m just going to talk more about kind of that asset allocation process. So when you think about the process, and Walter, this is something that we’ve talked about in the past on some past episodes, but you know, you can start in, you’d go back and you look at historical information, say, well, here’s what you know, the s and p 500 did, or here’s what international stocks did. And so it’s easily to go back and look at those historical returns. But frankly, we’re more concerned about what’s likely to happen in the future. And certainly we don’t have a crystal ball, but there are different ways. Go ahead and get estimates about forward future looking expected returns and simply put a, we did an episode on this where I kind of referenced a morning star article talking about return expectations going forward.

Kevin:                   And this author for Morningstar went out and surveyed a lot of big different asset managers that did their own research and came up with, you know, these return expectations. And it was pretty insightful to see that there is a lot of similarities in what they were expecting. But the point that we made in that podcast episode was the four looking returns were a lot lower than what history had been. So you know, if you’re going into retirement and you’re thinking you’re going to get historical stock market returns of 10 or 11% and you get say half of that or 60% of that, well let’s just say that you might have to unretire and nobody wants to do that. So having these return expectations are really important. So I’m not going to go into all the detail, but we went into some of the detail on that prior episode in the show notes.

Kevin:                   We’ll link to that episode as well. So we have these forward looking return expectations. Stocks are more difficult to forecast than bonds. You look at bonds today and say, okay, I’m going to go buy a 10 year US government bond and if I hold it for the entire 10 years, Woo, I got about 1.6% so you know, bonds are relatively easy to go ahead and predict because you’re just looking at the starting yield and that’s going to explain more than probably 90 95% of the return over the holding period. So we have stocks, we have bonds, we won’t get in to anything other than that. But let’s assume that we have our return expectations. You know, we have our expectations for us stocks, we have our expectations for say, European stocks, Japanese stocks, emerging market stocks, you name that. And now we come down to what we call optimizing the portfolio.

Kevin:                   So, we figured out what asset classes we may want to own. Again, I just listed several of them or several others as well, but now we’re going to go ahead and we’re going to combine these into our recipe and we’re going to use a mathematical process to do that. It’s just called an optimization. It gets into, this is definitely a fairly technical area and I want, I’m not going to go down the rabbit hole, but simply put, you need to go head and have an assumption for how much risk that asset class is going to have. You know, we’ve called it a wiggle factor in the past. You know, bonds don’t wiggle that much. They don’t move up and down that much, at least short term, high quality bonds. Stocks have a much greater wiggle factor in certain stocks. We’ll go ahead and move around more than others, but I’ll just use that wiggle factor.

Kevin:                   Let’s just call it risk. We’re going to have our return expectation we already talked about, and then thirdly, we’re going to have the relationship between these assets and mathematically we call that correlation. You know, it just how similar or dissimilar these move together. So when you have stocks and just say you have large stocks and small stocks here in the u s the correlation is going to be pretty high. If stocks have a big down day and they sell off, well more likely than not. You know, large stocks and small stocks are going to go down. It says nothing about the magnitude of the decline together, but it just talks about the movement up or down. So, and whenever you think about diversifying, which is something we’ll go into in a little bit more detail here in a moment, you want some things that are going to behave differently.

Kevin:                   You know when something is zigging, you want something else that’s going to be zagging and go ahead and kind of smooth out that ride, particularly when you’re in retirement and trying to use your investments to go ahead and provide retirement income. So just a quick summary here. So we have the optimization process, we have our wonderful spreadsheet or you know, investment software that we’re using to go ahead and do this and we have an input for the risk for the return and then the correlation or how they move together. And if you go ahead and you do that, what you’re going to find is you’re going to have some optimized portfolio and okay, that sounds great. I’m just going to go run out and implement that. Well, not so fast. And I say not so fast because back to this concept of diversification, you know, whenever you go ahead and you do this, if you have say some asset class that is expected to do maybe a lot more than some others, when you go through that optimization, you can get some really funky results.

Kevin:                   So, you can say like, well we think emerging market stocks are going to return 10% over the next 10 years and you have stocks maybe only going to do 6% just kind of giving a hypothetical example here. Well, the optimizer is going to say, well on a lot of emerging market stocks and you know, that may sound great and that may be mathematically accurate, but again, these return expectations or forecasts and there’s different levels of uncertainty around that. So we don’t have a crystal ball. So we diversified. So what we ultimately ended up doing is putting some constraints around the portfolio or around the optimization. You know, maybe we don’t want any more than, you know, 10 or 20% of our portfolio to be in those, you know, risky, emerging markets stocks. Maybe we want a certain amount of domestic stocks and not just all international or vice versa.

Kevin:                   You get the idea. So those constraints matter, matter a lot. But really it’s kind of just saying that, hey, we don’t have perfect foresight. There’s some very sophisticated methods to go ahead and provide these estimations for future returns. But they’re uncertain. You know, there’s a lot of things can happen that are unforeseen. So we’re diversified. So we’ve gone through this process, we go ahead and don’t get some wonky optimization resolved and say that we’re just going to own, you know, one or two asset classes. We’re going to have a diversified. And then what we do here in, you know, it helps I think to just understand these relationships, but we actually go then and go ahead and do a scenario analysis or stress test to these portfolios. So we’ve gone through the expectations and forming those. We’ve optimized the portfolio, we provided some constraints to have because we want to make sure that we diversify and also we’ve got to be able to stick with it.

Kevin:                   So, if we construct something that just looks totally, you know, weird frankly, your emotions are going to be more tested to stick with it, even if it’s mathematically accurate. So then we come down and do this scenario analysis. So what does that mean? Well, a good stress test is going back and seeing how that portfolio would have behaved going through 2008 and 2009 so that’s one example. Or, you know, hey, what if interest rates went up by a percent or down by a percent or stocks, you know, rose by say 10 or 15% or sold off by 10 or 15%. You know, if you’re out there kind of a do it yourself investor, you’re probably not going to be able to do something like this. But we do have different tools available to us that we use here at least internally to go ahead and get an idea of how the portfolio is going to perform in certain types of environments.

Kevin:                   And you know, nothing is perfect. Again, these are all estimations and I won’t get into the weeds about how it works exactly, but it just gives us an idea of how our portfolio is likely to hold up in different environments. So we can’t predict the future. We can’t predict if interest rates are going to move up or down by a percent, but at least these are relationships in these stress tests. You start teasing out some good information and really having more of a knowledge about how your portfolio is going to respond, you know, in any sort of environment or at least the environments that you’re, that you’re testing.

Walter:                 I’ve always found Kevin that interesting when you talk about like looking at historical data and gosh, it would be so nice if we could look at that and then extrapolate into the future and predict what’s going to happen. That would make the whole thing a little bit easier. Right. But it’s interesting that you’re not necessarily throwing out the past, you’re using it to see if this happens again, how would something perform? So you’re, you’re still using the past, you’re not throwing it away completely, but you’re also not relying on it to make predictions about the future. Is that right?

Kevin:                   Yeah, that’s exactly right. And thank you for interjecting Walter. I’m sure that woke up a few listeners. Thank you.

Walter:                 I’m intrigued. It’s, uh, it’s interesting to see the you that you’ve used the metaphor a few times, but you know how the sausage gets made or you know, kind of what’s going on behind the scenes.

Kevin:                   Yeah. I’ll give you a few examples here. So if you go back and you look at, Oh say coming out of 2009. So whenever, you know, markets have sold off a lot, you know, stocks went down by about half, but then when it turn, you know, certain assets that respond better in risk on environments. When you know, markets are returning positively and trending upwards, small stocks tend to do pretty well. Environments like that whenever you are more late cycle. So again, these are kind of getting into that scenarios, but at least using history as a guide in this example of stocks that have better balance sheets aren’t as levered, are more profitable. You know, their earnings are steadier. Those stocks tend to hold up better late in the cycle and also give you a little bit of protection when things go, you know, the other way as well.

Kevin:                   So, we can get an idea of how certain stocks and certain asset classes are going to hold up through these different environments. And then again, because we have imperfect information and these are just forecasts, we’ll go ahead and think through and just say, okay, well you know the optimizer, we just put in a few different points here. It has no idea where we’re at in any sort of market cycle. And I’m not going to presuppose that we have perfect foresight there either. But you know, at least up until the end of 2018 we knew we are in about a 10 year run for us stocks and we’ve been in the longest expansion in history now in the u s market. So we can at least, you know, if we’re concerned about market going the other way at some point stress testing the portfolio under a scenario where you know, stocks sell off by, you know, 10 or 15 or 20% gives us an idea how our portfolio is going to respond and, and we feel that that’s valuable because it’s really difficult to build an all-weather portfolio.

Kevin:                   You know, when interest rates were a lot higher, I, I would argue there was a lot easier. Today it’s much more difficult. So when you go through that optimization, I think the scenario testing part of it is much more important today because you kind of do have to at least somewhat pick a lane. You can’t build that all weather portfolio nearly as well as you did, you know, say 10 years ago when interest rates were, you know, 5% for five year CD down at the local bank. And today there, you know, you’re still lucky if you’re getting around 2%. So it’s just, it’s a different world today. And if you go back a generation when rates were even higher, you know, certainly it’s exponentially more difficult today to build this portfolio that we’re talking about. But the thing that I resigned to is where we started the conversation is again, science is a guide.

Kevin:                   History is a guide. You know, using standing on the shoulders of somebody like Harry Markowitz who won the Nobel prize for this work for modern portfolio theory gives us confidence that hey, you know, we don’t have perfect foresight but we have, you know, what is a good process? We have some good thought going into it and as long as we continue down that path and we’re able to go ahead and stay disciplined over time, the results are more than likely going to take care of themselves. Certainly, you can go out and you can get lucky, you know, some people, Walter, have you ever known anybody that went to Vegas and won and came back and told everybody about it?

Walter:                 Eh, no, nothing that was worth bragging about. But you know, I think anytime you walk from Vegas, probably a, you know, in the positive, you’re good.

Kevin:                   Yeah. We have a client and since we do tax returns here, we, we, we see this, but he had to pick up some winnings from the local casino here in northeast Ohio. So this is a good chunk of change. There was, it wasn’t over $100,000 but it was, it was close. And so I saw this and I’m like, wow, that’s great. And then I asked, well like how much in losses do we have to write off against it? And uh, let’s just say he didn’t have to pay any tax on that income because his losses outweighed his gains. But I guarantee you around his buddies, he disproportionately told a story about the gains and not the losses. Right? Sure, of course you would. So again, when it comes down to the investments, it’s all about that process. So just a couple things and we’ll wrap up here and then we’ll take a break and pick this up in the next episode.

Kevin:                   So again, where we started was, you know, we need to have a financial plan. We presuppose that that was already done. Now that is the objective for investment portfolio we’ve talked about in past episodes, but that’s going to give you your how much risk you can afford a tank, really how much risk you need to take. And you know, again, kind of how much risk you need to take is associated with what kind of return that you need as well as then you start talking qualitatively about how you feel about it because you have to be able to sleep at night and understand how this fits together. Otherwise, you know, you know, don’t pass, go unnecessarily. Then you need to use science. Again, use the science that we talked about mostly about the asset allocation. I gave a quick high level the asset allocation work that that we do or whatever financial person that you’re working with should be doing.

Kevin:                   Or if they’re not doing and are outsourcing it, they should certainly understand it. So I would ask some questions at the very minimum, some takeaways from today as some of these questions ask them to describe what their process looks like. Ask them to describe how they, you know, do they formulate future expected returns? Are they just using history as a guide? That’s a big difference right there. Ask them, you know, how they go about selecting their investments. Again, that’s something that we’re going to get into today, but something that is important and may not be the most important thing when it comes to that recipe verse, the ingredients conversation that we had, but it’s still is important. And then, you know, ask them if are they using an optimization process or what does that look like? Or how are they deciding, you know, what their constraints look like.

Kevin:                   All these things, it may sound like, you know, I’m Charlie Brown’s teacher right now. I can tell you after actually doing this myself for the last 10 years, you really get a good understanding of what it means to go ahead and do this and how small changes to inputs in the process can lead to very different results. So frankly, the more experience I’ve got over the years, you kind of have, the more humble you get when it comes to this. I think the more you know, the more you know that you don’t know. But that’s okay because you’re still kind of, you know, building this process and improving upon it and you’re continually getting better and those results should take care of themselves over time. So just to kind of wrap things here, uh, so process, process, process expectations about future returns, optimization. You know, thinking about different scenarios because it’s difficult to build an all-weather portfolio today and then you’re going to kind of, you know, make that finalized decision.

Kevin:                   Something we’re going to talk about in the next episode is more about, uh, what we call investing factors. And this is another component that goes into our process. And as part of that science-based evidence, we’ll talk about that, but you get into any implementation considerations. Again, you’re going to have to go through a process to pick the investments. If you own different types of accounts, you know, all of these investments are taxed differently. So you need to think about, you know, what do I want to own and what type of account and is that suitable for that account? And so on and so forth. And that’s it. I mean there’s a lot to it. I again, a, hopefully, hopefully people are still listening. We’ll have to look at the statistics and see if somebody, a, the majority of the people kind of tapped out after five or 10 minutes or if they listened to the whole thing, but process, process, process.

Kevin:                   Because if you understand the process and not how all the sausage is made, but hey, there is a process. It’s built on science. Yes, investment markets are noisy in the short term, but this stuff works over time. I know where my money’s coming from in retirement for tomorrow, for the next five, next 10 years. So this riskier stuff in the portfolio, hey, I can still give it time to work. Well, that’s going to lead to couple things. One, probably going to be happier and have a greater peace of mind around what’s going on financially because you will understand that it is a process. You understand how it’s constructed and how it’s going to translate to your own lifestyle and wellbeing. And then two, it’s probably going to give you some more discipline. So when things, you know, do go a little bit hairy in the investment markets, like fourth quarter of last year, stocks sold off by more than 20% last few weeks have been pretty hairy as well.

Kevin:                   You’re going to say, well, Hey, I know where my money’s coming from for the next, you know, few years who are, or maybe even much longer than that. So you know, I’m just going to go ahead and trust the process and I know where my money’s coming from in the short term. So I’m just going to disregard all this noise that’s out there. All the financial pornography that’s out there and I’m okay. And that’s really what we try to get clients to, not to show them, you know, how to go ahead and do all this stuff in great detail and make them, you know, a financial planner and investment advisor or what have you. But really just to help them understand what the process is and how that’s going to translate through the Rome financial plan to their own lifestyle and how they’re going to be able to go ahead and transition into retirement with confidence. With clarity and be able to live the lifestyle that they want and make sure that they stay on track in honor of your a, your little ones. Certainly one of them has seen Shrek at this point, right? Yes. Okay. Okay, good. So a really the planning process is like an onion. It has layers isn’t the thing. I’m not going to try and do the Shrek voice.

Walter:                 Yes, that’s Walter. Thank you. Yes. You know, I just, yeah, you’re so you’re high level. I just, I had to come back in with a Shrek reference at the end just to get, achieve balance at the end of the episode there. So, um, no, it’s great. It’s a, it has so many layers to it and that is what you want when you’re talking about your life savings. Like you talked about Kevin, it’s what you want. You want to have some thought and a process behind this. The method to the madness, all the things that we’ve talked about that gives you an idea of what goes into the process behind the scenes under the hood of the planning process that Kevin and the team utilize each and every day there at True Wealth Design. If you want to get in touch, by the way, you can certainly do that if you haven’t before.

Walter:                 855-TWD-PLAN is the number that you can call to get in touch. That’s (855) 893-7526 they have offices in Akron and Canfield. You can find them online as well at truewealthdesign.com. That’s TrueWealthDesign.com. Click on the are we right for you button and you can schedule a 15-minute call with an experienced advisor on the team and you can get in touch with us as well through the website. That’s True Wealth Design.com and that’s part one of this podcast to series a two-part series. Diving into the planning process and as Kevin said, we’ll have part two coming at you on the next episode. We’ll dive deeper into this conversation. Kevin, I’m looking forward to it. Thanks for being our guide today. Thank you, Walter. All right. We’ll look forward to it next time where we’ll continue talking about the investment work that goes on inside of portfolios, the details, the process. We’ll continue that conversation next time around. Right back here on retire. Smart

Outro:                   information provided is for informational purposes only and does not constitute investment, tax or legal advice. Information is obtained from sources that are deemed to be reliable, but their accurateness and completeness cannot be guaranteed. All performance references historical and not an indication of future results. Benchmark indices are hypothetical and do not include any investment fees.