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Kevin Kroskey, CFP®, MBA – About – Contact
Tyler Emrick, CFA®, CFP® – About – Contact
Intro: Well, hey, welcome to another episode of Retire Smarter. I’m Walter Storholt, joined today by CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ Tyler Emerick, we’re giving Kevin the episode off to rest and relax, and he’ll be back next time around.
Walter Storholt: Today we’re going to be talking about retirement plans and clearing up some misconceptions around how to use an IRA. We’re going to be talking about 401ks, lots of other great information on the way in that regard on today’s episode.
So I can’t wait to get Tyler’s perspective on all of that. Tyler, it’s good to be with you again. I hope you’re well, my friend.
Tyler: Doing all right, thanks, Walt. Happy to be here, man.
Walter Storholt: Glad to hear it. What’s been going on in your world lately?
Tyler: Honestly, nothing too exciting. Well, I say that, but we are trying to move in this crazy housing market.
Walter Storholt: Oh, I see.
Tyler: So other than that, nothing too exciting.
Walter Storholt: Selling and buying, it’s always very stressful doing both at the same time.
Tyler: Selling and buying. But yeah, we’re really excited. Certainly adds a little bit of stress to the household, but I’m sure hopefully in a couple of months if Kevin lets me back on the podcast, I’ll be able to talk about how smooth the transition was and how easy it was. But I don’t know, we’ll see.
Walter Storholt: Fantastic. Well, good luck through the process. As someone who has gone through it recently, I know it can be stressful. So just keep your wits about you, take things in stride, and you’ll be just fine, I’m sure.
You’ve got the right personality for selling a house. You take things one step at a time as the way that you strike me on this show, Tyler. So I think you’ll be in good shape.
Tyler: Good deal. I’ll make sure that’s on the listing.
Walter Storholt: Yep, that’s right.
Tyler: Anything to sell.
Walter Storholt: That’s right. I love it. I love it. My only advice to you is don’t wait to move the heaviest object by yourself out of the house after the final walkthroughs already happened at nine o’clock at night on your final day there.
And yes, you will injure yourself and then you’ll spend those first couple of weeks injured after having sold your house instead of enjoying your new place.
Tyler: Sounds pretty specific.
Walter Storholt: Sounds like I speak from experience, and it just might be the case, so…
Tyler: Well, I’ll make sure to make a note of that for sure. Considering it’s been a number of years since I’ve been able to consistently say that I’ve worked out. Yes, I definitely need to make sure I be careful there.
Walter Storholt: Yeah, I think having worked out a lot recently actually hurt myself in that case because I was like, I can do this, instead of calling in for help at the last moment.
Tyler: I’ve been there probably a number of times over the last few years when I’ve tried to get back into it for about a week, and then fizzle out because I overdo it.
Walter Storholt: There’s probably some good financial planning parallels to that story, but we’ll save that for another day. Let’s get into today’s topic. Speaking of maybe misconceptions or stress, or trying to figure out complicated things like buying and selling houses and moving and all the logistics that go into that.
A little bit of relation to our conversation today on retirement plans. And I know this is a really important topic to you, Tyler, because not only are you guys dealing with people’s investments and life savings, but in most cases, I would imagine helping them turn that into some sort of retirement solution.
And so you’re dealing with people’s 401ks and IRAs and all the rest of those types of plans on a daily basis, right?
Tyler: Absolutely, we are. And I think it’s been top of mind for me, I think especially over the last say month, month and a half. We do quite a bit of retirement teaching in classes at some of the local universities here in northeast Ohio.
And it’s always a section within that class talking about retirement plans and how to best utilize them and apply them to your specific situation. And having gone through a few of those classes here recently, it’s been top of mind. I’ve gotten quite a bit of questions on it, and that’s really where the idea came to say, Hey, let’s spend some time talking about it on the podcast.
If I’m getting these questions in class, maybe some of the listeners, it would be applicable to their situation as well. The story that I’m going to use to maybe help facilitate and drive the podcast today is very specific, and it’s a situation of a small business owner. And I know not everybody, that’s going to be applicable in their particular situation, but I’ll definitely try to relate it back.
And I think there’s going to be some good tidbits, whether you are a small business owner, a 1099 employee, or just a W2 individual that works for a company and you have a 401k. In all three of those situations, what are the important decision points and what should you be considering as opposed to just saying, Yeah, I’m just going to contribute pretax into my 401k and go from there.
Walter Storholt: Well, where’s the best place to start?
Tyler: Yeah, so I think the best place to start is maybe to give a little bit of a high-level or a thousand-foot view on retirement plans as I see them and how I think about them. And the difference that I come up with I think immediately, at least in my mind is there’s really three buckets as you start thinking about, well, what types of retirement plans can I use?
And each of these buckets are very, very different. So the first bucket, I separate these into what’s called employer retirement plans. These are traditionally what you would think of as a 401K or a 403B that are offered through an employer. And from a 401k, a 403B standpoint. they’re very, very similar. Traditionally, if you work for a not-for-profit, you’re going to have a 403B. If you work for a for-profit company, you’re going to have a 401k.
But these are the plans that are tied to your particular employer. So they’re going to set the rules, they’re going to give you the investment options, and they’re going to tell you really what you can and can’t do within those plans.
And then the second bucket would be individual retirement accounts or IRAs, which you can go and get at any custodian or financial institution. And these particular accounts really have nothing to do with your employer plan. And I think that’s a very big differentiator and something to keep in mind as we’re looking through these. Because I hear all the time that, well, hey, I make too much money to put money into a Roth or make a Roth contribution.
And what they’re talking about there is they’re talking about some of the income limits that are going to be applicable to a Roth IRA specifically.
Those income limits have no bearing or no implications on what you can and can’t do inside of your employer plans, which of course you can put back. If you make a million bucks a year, you can put back almost $27,000 a year if you’re over and can do the catch-up contribution if you’re over 50 into an employer plan through your 401k or 403B.
So that’s where I think it’s very important to distinguish between those two categories of retirement accounts. And then I guess the third bucket to not lose sight of it is a catch-all or a unique bucket for individuals that are 1099 employees or individuals that own small businesses. They don’t have access to an employer plan per se, so the IRS has these other types of plans available that they can use, which we’ll get into.
So I think that’s very important before we kind of dive too much into it, is understanding that when I’m talking about limits or options inside of an IRA, those might be different than what we’ve got inside of an employer plan or a 401k.
Walter Storholt: Pretty good high level to get us started. So these three buckets, these three areas, is there one that people tend to fall into the most, or do most folks have a mix of those different buckets?
Tyler: Yeah, I think employer plans are the ones we see by far the most. I think most individuals out there are going to be W2 employees. They’re getting good benefits or some type of benefits from their employer, and utilizing those plans are generally going to be the first place that you’re going to want to save. You’re going to get some matching programs and things like that to where you might get some free money.
Certainly, those employer plans are going to have the ability, or at least most of them. I got my start at one of the largest retirement plan institutions in the US, and as I said, I have a lot of experience going back in and looking at these different plans offered by employers. And I’ll be the first to tell you, they’re all a little different, but most of them over the years have the ability now to where you can save either pre-tax or Roth inside of those 401ks, which I think is a huge benefit that’s often overlooked.
And that is a decision that you really are going to want to take a look at and decide which option is going to be best for you. Because while you’re working you want to get that free money, but the question becomes is when we think about pre-tax savings, hey, do you want the tax deduction now? You want that money to grow, and then when you do pull it out at some point down the road the good old IRS is going to get their piece, and you’re going to have to pay taxes at that time.
Is that more beneficial or is that Roth option a little bit better in your situation where you’re saying, Hey, I’d rather put my money in my employer plan or my 401k and I’d rather pay taxes now and let that money continue to grow tax-free. And then when you pull it out, you don’t have to pay taxes on it.
And that would be the Roth option. And I think that’s one of the big decision points that a lot of the families are going to have to look at and decide. And sometimes it might be clear, but other times I think when you work with a financial advisor, some of the things that we are going to do and try to put into perspective is try to say, Hey, looking at your tax situation now versus what it might be a few years down the road, or once you start retirement, and understanding, are you paying more in taxes now or are you paying less? Or are you going to pay more in taxes once you retire?
That might sound a little counterintuitive, but when you look at the current tax code and how it’s set to sunset in 2026, and those rate increases are set to happen almost across the board, then there are some scenarios or some of the families or individuals where they might look at it and say, Hey, I’m saving pre-tax right now, but then when I go and pull that money out in retirement, say five, six years down the road, I’m going to be in a little bit higher tax bracket.
And under those scenarios, you might want to consider or start looking at the Roth option inside of those 401ks. But long-winded answer well to your question of, Hey, which one do we use more frequently or do we see it’s… Yes, definitely these employer plans.
Now, of course, once you head into retirement and you make that transition, now you go from that savings mode into the distribution mode. And I think there’s where those employer plans and some of the quirks and features that they have inside of those become maybe more apparent and understanding them.
I just got a call from an individual last week where her retirement plan, when she gave them a call, said, Hey, you’ve got to have this money out of your employer plan or out of this 401k by the time you reach 69 or we’re going to cash you out of it completely.
I would say that’s a pretty rare one, but there certainly are withdrawal limitations and things like that for some plans. And being aware of that will really help you formulate your game plan heading into retirement.
So that’s that third bucket, or the first bucket, excuse me, would be those employer plans, 401Ks, 403Bs, and then you’ve got that middle bucket there where we’re looking at those individual retirement accounts. And this is where there are certain income limits where you might or might not be able to contribute to them.
So you definitely need to be mindful of your tax situation and do you have the capability to put money inside a Roth IRA, for example. Or, hey, can you put money into a traditional IRA and actually take a tax deduction for it? Because just like inside your 401k where there’s two ways you can save, pre-tax and Roth, the IRA accounts, there’s two of those as well.
There’s traditional, which, hey, when you put the money in, typically we’re looking for some type of tax deduction. And then there’s a Roth account where when we put the money in we’re not looking for the tax deduction, that money, we’re looking for to grow and become tax-free down the road.
Now, the income limits and amount you can put inside of your retirement accounts or your IRA accounts is much less than the limits that you can put inside of your employer plan. So we want to be mindful of that as well. So now we kind of get into I guess the little bit more of the meat and potatoes of the why, or where I think maybe some of the most underutilized retirement plans are. And these are for those individuals that are self-employed. Our 1099 employees are not employees but 1099 contractors potentially, and they maybe don’t have access to an employer plan.
And when you look at the limits on how much that you can put into IRAs and them being so much lower, then that’s where we get into that realm of, all right, what are your other options? Or what are these other types of retirement plans that you can utilize?
I’ve had families where they haven’t had access to those employer plans, so they just, Hey, we’re going to put money inside of there. They make a contribution to a traditional IRA or a Roth IRA each year, and they’re capped out if they’re over 50 at $7,000 a year into there.
So it sometimes, especially for individuals that are needing to catch up or hey, they’re getting closer to retirement and they’re really wanting to maximize those accounts, well sometimes that $7,000 isn’t enough and they’re really wanting to look for ways or look for options to where they can put back a little bit more money and get some of the tax benefits that those retirement plans provide.
So what I found is traditionally that next step or what those individuals are going to want to look for are, let’s call it either a simple or a SEP IRA. And you can think of these types of individual retirement accounts as places or positions where we can try to put more money back where we have the ability to put more money back into them and reap some of those tax advantages and tax benefits that everybody else that have access to 401ks are able to do.
You look at a SEP for example or a SEP IRA. The contribution limit to that right now is up to $61,000 a year that you can put back in there pretax. So it’s a nice big jump from 7,000.
Walter Storholt: Just a bit, yeah, just a slight bump up.
Tyler: Yes. And so using a SEP I think is a nice fine option for individuals that are really getting maybe close to retirement or they find themselves in a very good situation where their income has increased, or their income’s at a point to where they’re wanting to maximize those savings towards retirement and they’re looking for places to do it.
That SEP IRA might be a fine type of account to look at. But even more so I think than the SEP there is, I think, a less known or a less utilized option that I think can be extremely, extremely beneficial in certain scenarios.
So this is where I’ll tell you a story about Jane. Jane is an individual that I’ve worked with for a number of years now, and Jane found herself or at least was working at a position where she had a good life, had a reasonable income, but then in her mid-fifties she actually went out and said, Hey, I want to start my own business.
And the business really took off. Really a great story. This individual, if I told you I could talk about her for days. Very hard worker, couldn’t have happened to a better individual. And she really found herself in this situation to where, hey, I have this business, I’m working a lot of hours, retirement’s hopefully just around the corner, maybe 8, 9, 10 years down the road. I found my income coming up very high.
In her situation, she ended up being in the 35% tax bracket. So we’re looking at ways for her to say, how can I maybe lower my tax bill this year since I’m in such a high tax bracket, and then make up some or catch up some of these for retirement, and maybe put a bunch of savings back and get a double benefit. Hey, say the tax is at a higher tax rate, and then sock a bunch of money away for retirement.
That in her case was really just around the corner. And I find that a lot with a lot of families. Hey, you get close to retirement, maybe the house gets paid off, maybe you pay off some credit cards or some bills and you find yourself with this influx of cash, so you’re like, Hey, where can I put it? Where can I put it and maximize the benefit so that way I can put myself in a better situation heading into retirement?
And in her case, she just again… Happened her income really skyrocketed and had a situation where we can put back. And I think most individuals would say, Hey, why don’t you go and open up a SEP that’s meant for individuals in your situation and we can put $61,000 a year back?
And hey, this would be a good situation and a good catch-up. But if we look at her alternative or another option, the situation for her or our recommendation was actually to utilize a 401k plan and a cash balance pension plan. What comes to mind when I say pension plan?
Walter Storholt: Automatic payments sound pretty good.
Tyler: Yes, automatic payments, or hey, we don’t have these anymore.
Walter Storholt: Also rarity, I was going to say would be word association number two.
Tyler: Oh, absolutely.
Walter Storholt: Dinosaur perhaps?
Tyler: Yes, it used to be. Well, they’re definitely gone by the wayside. A lot of employers, it used to be, hey, you worked for 40, 50 years. About 40, 50 years. Wow, that’d be a long working history. But 30 or 40 years you work for your same employer, you retire and you get this nice pension and it pays you on a monthly basis once you retire. And that’s what you live off of.
And a lot of employers have gone away from those. And if you have one or if any listeners have had, I’m sure you’ve gotten communications about those pensions, whether they’ve been frozen and they’re not using them anymore, or they make you use them or do some type of payout option for them to get out of them. Because most employers are using 401ks now and really putting the onus on the individual or us to save our own investments and go from there.
So yeah, I think there’s definitely a little bit more of a negative connotation. Well, not negative connotation with pensions, but we just don’t see them much anymore. But they are still out there and they are a wonderful option for some individuals. And especially as I think about Jane in her situation, what that allowed us to do or the recommendation that we said for her was, Hey, why don’t we use a solo 401K for you? You have your business, you’re the only employee, the 401k is going to give you the option just as anybody else would that’s tied to an employer. You’re just doing it on your own.
You can still put back almost $27,000 a year in there, plus some employer contributions that would really make that contribution a little bit higher than that. And then we can pair that solo 401k with a cash balance pension plan.
And since she’s the only employee of her benefit or of her business, that cash balance pension plan really is for her sole benefit, which is great. But it also, and the reason why we’re using it is it gives us the ability to really accelerate her savings and maximize and put a ton of money back.
So in her situation specifically this year, the contribution that we’re going to be able to make between the 401K and the cash balance pension plan is upwards of about $250,000.
So you look at her situation being in that top tax bracket, not quite the top tax bracket but the 35% tax bracket, and being able to put back almost 170-some thousand dollars more than what she could just using a SEP. That really can add up in value. Just from a pure tax savings standpoint this year, she’s looking at almost fifty-nine, sixty thousand in total tax savings, which is no small chunk of change.
Now, don’t get me wrong, and obviously I don’t want to mislead you here.
At some point down the road she’s going to have to pay taxes on that money, but this is where we pair it with an actual plan. And in her situation with her wanting to, hey, I don’t see myself working or doing the business much over say another 7, 8, 9 years when we look at her tax bracket once she retired, she’s going to go from that 35% rate down into say the mid-twenties, probably somewhere around 25%.
Now, we don’t know what’s going to happen with tax rates and the tax laws can change all the time, so we can just use what we have available to us now to help make a decision. But in her situation we say, all right, hey, I can put it back and I can save 35% now, and in 10 years I’m looking at maybe a 25% rate, that’s a 10% delta or a 10% difference.
So in her situation, putting back a good, almost $171,000 more than what she could just using the traditional SEP account, then that’s just looking at almost $17,000 of true tax savings because of that tax rate differential. So you have some big numbers there.
Walter Storholt: Big numbers across the board there for that person. You talk about some of those savings and some of those opportunities, I’m just curious as you continue here, is this a common situation? Are we picking something that’s really out of left field to illustrate an extreme? Or is this a run-of-the-mill, just an everyday client that you’re working with and having these kinds of outcomes?
Tyler: Yeah, I think it’s definitely something that we look at for any small business owner or any individual that’s a contract employee, or an individual that has maybe retired early in say their late 50s, early 60s. They didn’t fully retire. Maybe they go back to contract work, PRN work, or something like that. And they’re really just looking for places to say, Hey, I just want to save. I’m looking for some type of pretax or some tax relief this year for whatever reason. How can we maximize that and kick the can, and use that and earmark some money for down the road?
So yeah, more than a handful of families over the last few years we’ve done this for. So I would say if you’re in that situation, it’s very common. But two, well, I wouldn’t say it’s very common for individuals to use this because I think a lot of times, and rightfully so, when you’re looking at retirement plans and you’re in that type of situation, life’s busy. Things happen, things come up. And a lot of times taking the easy route or the less complex route is good. The old, what is it? The old KISS theory, Walt, you heard of that?
Walter Storholt: Keep it simple silly.
Tyler: Keep it simple silly. That’s actually a little more PC. Keep it simple stupid is what my, I think, elementary school teacher taught me when I was there.
So I think especially in my case, hey, financial advisor, sometimes you’d like to geek out on some of the details and some of the, look at this elegant solution that we found. And sometimes it’s not worth it. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze. The complexity does not add a ton of value.
But I think in a situation like this, retirement plan specifically, I think that complexity, if you happen to find yourself in that particular situation, can be just overwhelmingly beneficial. And then obviously if you have the right team in place to be able to implement it, then all that back-end stuff becomes much, much more easy to implement and do, and really can work out in your favor.
Again, you got to be under the right circumstance, but we definitely run into it more often than not with individuals with small businesses or self-employed individuals for sure.
Walter Storholt: Well, I think that’s great, and neat to hear all those different angles and parts of that story, Tyler. That’s really helpful.
Tyler: Yeah, absolutely.
Now, as I think about individuals too, you might be sitting there saying, All right, hey, that’s great. I don’t have my own business. I’m not a self-employed individual. How can we really look to maximize what’s available to me?
So we definitely don’t want to lose sight of that as well. And I think some of the common missteps or some of the common things that individuals need to be considered as they look at their own maybe 401K or 403Bs, or hey, should they be saving it? Should I be saving it in an IRA or a Roth?
I think the first thing that you really need to come back down to and say is, well, what do you want to prioritize from a savings standpoint? Is pretax saving more beneficial in your situation or is Roth more beneficial in your situation? And really start there, and then go to your employer plan. Obviously, get all the free money you can. You’re maxing that out.
Like I said before, if you’re over 50 you can put back almost $27,000 a year inside of your 401K plan. That’s a good chunk of change. And if you find yourself in a situation where you’re actually maximizing that, I think a little-known benefit that a lot of employer plans offer that people might not take advantage of is called after-tax contributions. You heard of that before Walt? I know you do some of these podcasts.
Walter Storholt: After-tax contributions. Yeah, absolutely.
Tyler: Okay. Yep, so after-tax contributions are essentially once you start maxing out, or once you’ve put in almost $27,000 a year, again being over 50 into the 401K plan or 403B, some employer plans will give you another bucket that you can put more money into. And that other bucket is called after-tax.
And what that means is it still comes off your pay, still comes out of your paycheck, it still goes inside of your retirement plan, but it goes in and you do not get a tax deduction for it.
Any growth that money earns obviously would be taxable to you when you pull it out, but the key benefit here is that this after-tax is having the ability once you retire, or some plans will give it to you once you turn 59 and a half, where you can actually zero in on that after-tax bucket and roll it directly over to a Roth IRA where it would actually grow tax-free for the rest of your life.
So I think that after-tax bucket and utilizing that could be really useful for someone that’s in a situation where they’re like, Hey, I’m maxing out my retirement plans, where else should I be looking? Definitely looking at that after-tax as an option could be extremely beneficial. And have some of the same components or some of the same benefits as Jane’s story that we talked about, where she utilized her own 401k and a cash balance plan.
Walter Storholt: And whether you’re a business owner, 1099, W2 employee, it at least sounds like everybody’s got some levers they can pull here.
Tyler: Oh, absolutely. And I would say the other one or the final tidbit that all of us should really be looking at this year, the market has had a rough go at it this year. Equity prices are very much suppressed. I think the S&P 500 when we’re recording this was down almost 24%.
And when you look at a market pullback like we’ve experienced, we’re coming up on the end of the year. I think it’s a really good time if you haven’t considered, say, a Roth conversion to really be looking at your situation and saying, Hey, do I have an opportunity to take some of those pre-tax savings that I have in my 401k or in a traditional IRA, and taking it and moving it or converting it over to a Roth IRA and paying the taxes.
Because again, as we think about asset location, I think that those Roth monies, once we get it in there, if we can invest it appropriately we have more opportunity for growth. Well, that just makes that Roth conversion all that much more beneficial.
So I think that’s another maybe a little tidbit or something I want to throw in here as we’re finishing up and wrapping up, that all individuals should be maybe looking at and looking at their tax situations here and saying, Hey, do I have an opportunity, or is this something where I can maybe take advantage of at the end of the year with the Roth conversions?
Walter Storholt: What else should we know here, Tyler, about retirement plans? I know it’s something that obviously the complexity of the topic and all the different options and plans is something we could do many, many, many episodes about if we wanted to go into full complete detail on all of this, but in context of today’s episode, what else should we know?
Tyler: No, I think what we covered I think’s the big stuff that I at least wanted to make sure that I got out today. And at the end of the day, well, the business here at True Wealth, we’re big on financial planning. And understanding and having a plan that you can work out of to really start helping you implement and make these decisions I think is extremely important.
I say that I think every time I get on the podcast. Hopefully it doesn’t become a moot point, but it is extremely helpful and I think it makes making some of these decisions and feeling confident about them all that much more imperative.
In its most basic form, a financial plan is simply taking the money that you have saved and an idea of what you need to live off of in retirement and start extrapolating that out over the next 10, 15, 20, 30 years. And trying to use that data to make very good or informed decisions today.
And I think as we start looking at retirement plans and that big decision on, hey, should I save pretax or should I save Roth? Hey, should I really try to maximize my savings and catch up here right before I go into retirement, and maybe use the after-tax option inside my 401k? Or if you’re a self-employed individual or a small business owner, maybe utilize some of these 401ks and cash balance pension plans to maximize my savings?
Well, to understand that and help make that decision you got to have some type of framework for what the future looks like. Again, we don’t have a crystal ball. Well, I would’ve never told you I’m going to be moving here in October, that’s going to be the worst time ever.
Tyler: And I’m a planner, so we don’t know what the future… But if we have that plan in place, we can adjust more easily and we can help make the best-informed decisions for ourselves now.
So again, I know it might sound like a broken record, but again, just having that plan in place or having something in place I think is extremely, extremely important.
Walter Storholt: Well, that’s really helpful.
Tyler, appreciate all of that. We know that financial planning, a big piece of your investments, it’s all building toward that retirement piece of the puzzle. So make sure that it is addressed as part of your overall financial plan.
And if you need to discuss that in detail with someone, look no further than the True Wealth team, you can get in touch by going to truewealthdesign.com, and in fact, click the Are We Right for You button to schedule a 15-minute call with an experienced advisor on the True Wealth team.
Again, that’s truewealthdesign.com, or you can call 8-5-5-TWD-PLAN. 8-5-5-8-9-3-PLAN, and either way, we’ll put you in touch. It’ll allow you to have that conversation with Tyler, Kevin, and the rest of the crew at True Wealth Design and get the help that you need when it comes to assembling your financial plan for the future.
Well Tyler, thank you so much for your help and guidance on the show today. Enjoyed it. Glad we kicked Kevin off today. I know he’ll be back next time around, but this was a lot of fun as always with you, and we’ll talk again soon.
Tyler: Yeah, appreciate it.
Walter Storholt: Good luck with the house move. Looking forward to a report on that.
Walter Storholt: All right, take care. That’s Tyler Emerick, I’m Walter Storholt. Thanks for joining us, everybody. We’ll see you next time on Retire Smart.
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