The Smart Take:
Time for part 2 of our conversation on the retirement rule gone awry that you’ll be in a lower tax bracket at retirement. On this episode, we’ll showcase a scenario where, if you’ve done a particularly good job saving for retirement, following this rule really puts you off track.
Read the Kevin’s original article about the Successful Smiths by clicking here. Full podcast transcription is below too.
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Announcer: Welcome to Retire Smarter with Kevin Kroskey. Find answers to your toughest questions and get educated about the financial world. It’s time to retire smarter.
Walter Storholt: Time to rock and roll on another edition of Retire Smarter, the podcast for you if you’re planning for a successful retirement and looking for some guidance along the way. Keven Kroskey here with us each and every time to help kind of navigate us through some of the most important questions surrounding financial and retirement planning. Kevin’s the President and Wealth Advisor at True Wealth Design in Northeast Ohio, with offices in Akron and Canfield, and you can find us online at truewealthdesign.com. That’s truewealthdesign.com. Click the Are We Right for You button to schedule your 15-minute call with an experienced financial advisor on the True Wealth team.
Walter Storholt: Kevin, hope you’re doing well. Ready for another show today?
Kevin Kroskey: Yeah, Walter. This is our first part two. I feel like we’re official now. We’ve gotten to that stage in our podcast career that I have a part two, so let’s do this.
Walter Storholt: You stole my thunder. Yeah, I was really excited to kind of tee up part two of the podcast, a continuation of sorts. If you haven’t listened to part one, Kevin, should we advise go back and listen to part one? Should these be listened to in chronological order, you think?
Kevin Kroskey: Should it be listened to in order? I would suggest so. There’s going to be a couple things we’re not going to rehash here, so it’s going to set the stage, but if you listen to this one and then went back, I don’t think it would be terrible. But definitely listen to them both.
Walter Storholt: There you go. Not against the law to listen to this one first, but you’re maybe going to miss some setup from episode number one, the part one episode of this conversation. That conversation, as you probably saw when you clicked to listen to today’s show, is about that retirement rule gone awry, plan to be in a lower tax bracket in retirement. We talked a little bit about the Modest Millers on the last podcast, and we want to talk some more about the Successful Smiths on today’s show. But for those who maybe are tuning in to this episode first, Kevin, or maybe they’ve just kind of forgotten since they listened to the episode about the Modest Millers, reset the stage for us about why we’re discussing such an interesting retirement rule gone awry, that assumption that you’re going to be in that lower tax bracket in retirement.
Kevin Kroskey: What we discussed when we went over the Modest Millers was that they may actually be in a lower tax bracket, so the rule may be true for them. When I look at the rule in aggregate, that hey, you’re going to be in a lower tax bracket in retirement, that rule does apply for some people some of the time. For the Modest Millers, generally it did apply, and some of the things that we talked about that they should do coordinated with that. However, the one thing, a nice little summary maybe for the Modest Millers, is even when you’re in retirement, because of things like capital gains and how Social Security is taxed, you could appear to be in what it looks like a relatively low tax bracket, but because of some of those wonky tax rules for Social Security and what have you, your incremental rate on a distribution, say from like an IRA or what have you, can actually be a lot higher of a tax rate than what it appears.
Kevin Kroskey: Usually for Modest Millers, they are going to be in a lower bracket; however, you got to be mindful of that wonky Social Security taxation in having an interplay with capital gains. That’s probably a little bit more than you want to get into in a podcast, but at least if that applies to some people, just kind of keep that in mind. And certainly if you’re a client, then we’re doing that for you.
Walter Storholt: And certainly as we go through the show today, be thinking, and maybe you identify with one or the other. Maybe it’s the Successful Smiths. Does that sound like you? Or maybe are you a Modest Miller? Am I right in saying that there’s no wrong answer there, right, Kevin? If we identify with one or the other, that would be a good thing.
Kevin Kroskey: Oh yeah. No, completely. It’s just that the strategies are a little bit different, and when I say Modest Millers, literally I can think of, most of our clients, quite frankly, are very humble people. A lot of them you would call millionaire next doors, where they’ve done well, just because they’ve worked hard and saved, lived below their means, and they ended up with really more money than what they thought they would be able to accumulate when they started down that path.
Kevin Kroskey: Modest, we define about $100,000 of income and less and $100,000 of income and more, because the strategies really start applying a little bit differently to those income levels. But I’d be more than happy to be a Modest Miller in retirement, have my kids out and financially independent, have the mortgage paid off, and you have $100,000 of income hitting your tax return. Even if that’s all ordinary income, you pay about 10 grand between federal and state taxes, and you live on $90,000 a year. I’d be quite happy to be a Modest Miller in a situation like that.
Kevin Kroskey: It’s just that as you start getting up a little bit higher income levels, the strategies in some of the tax rules start changing. This is the experience that we’ve had in doing this work, really over the last 10 years for clients, and just coordinating your investments through taxes in a financial planning into one cohesive integrated strategy, and taking that multiyear approach to it.
Kevin Kroskey: As we look at, say, that over 100,000, what we dub the Successful Smiths, we have a lot of clients where maybe you had somebody that was, one of the spouses was climbing the corporate ladder, achieved and succeeded, and their income reflected that. They moved to higher positions, and now they were making well into the six figures and able to save a lot more. Certainly, their lifestyle may be increased a little bit, but it’s not like they completely changed their lifestyle. They were just able to put more in the 401(k)s. Or if their spouse was working now, maybe they were able to max out both 401(k)s. Or we have a lot of clients where the husband was maybe at Goodyear or B&W or another large local employer here in Northeast Ohio, and the wife was a schoolteacher. The schoolteachers, they were able to go ahead and put money in those 403(b)s or 457 plan. And oh by the way, they are quite a nice pension.
Kevin Kroskey: So we have a lot of clients that we’ve worked that are like that, and then they get close to retirement, and they say, “Wow, I can’t believe that we have almost a couple million dollars in our assets that we’ve accumulated.” Most of that typically tends to be in that tax-deferred tax bucket. Talking about the IRA, the 401(k), the 403(b), 457 plan, all the stuff that when it does come out, when you pull it out of the account, it’s going to be fully taxable and hits your tax return.
Kevin Kroskey: They may have some money in, say, a joint account or trust account in that taxable bucket, where they’re getting a 1099 every January, and they have to pay taxes on the dividends or the interest or what have you. And maybe they have a little bit in that tax-free bucket, but a lot of times, the people that fall in this Successful Smith category made too much money to put money into a Roth IRA. So approaching retirement, and they look, and they see okay, this is great. Hey, I got a pension. Hey, I’m going to have a pretty sizable Social Security benefit. Why? Well, I paid a lot in Social Security taxes over all those years I was doing pretty well.
Kevin Kroskey: You look at that and say okay, the pension, usually they’re going to start taking it right away, because they’ve been there for a long time, and it just makes sense to. I don’t want to say that uniformly. You always got to look at this and crunch the numbers, but a lot of times, since they have a pension, they’re going to start that right when they get into retirement. The Social Security, we’ve talked about that in a prior podcast. A lot of times it makes sense to defer, if not both of them, certainly one of them. It makes sense to defer that.
Kevin Kroskey: So we have somebody, a husband and wife, let’s say they’re 60 years old. I look at this as a few different inflection points. Imagine you got a husband and wife 60 years old. Say they retire. Maybe one or both have pensions. So that income, they’re going to be receiving that. It’s going to be hitting the tax return, and they’re going to be living off it. If they have a pretty decent pension, maybe it really provides most if not all of what they need. At 60, they can’t take their Social Security yet. 62 is the earliest, whereas 70 is the latest. They have something that’s associated with those tax-deferred accounts as well, that are called required minimum distributions, or for short we’ll just call them RMDs.
Kevin Kroskey: Simplistically, when you get into your 70s, any of the money that’s in that yet-to-be-taxed bucket, the IRAs, the 401(k)s, 403(b)s, what have you, has to start coming out, because the government hasn’t received any tax on it yet. You’ve gotten the benefit of tax deferral over the years, but they want to go ahead and have that money come out and start receiving some tax revenue. So you have to start pulling money out, but if we have the Smiths at age 60, they’re living off their pensions, it provides everything that they need, so they’ve done well. Maybe they don’t want to go ahead and increase their lifestyle any more and spend any more money, so the money is going to grow in those accounts. And then when they get to age 70, they have to start pulling the money out.
Kevin Kroskey: If they had a million dollars, just to make the math easy and use round numbers, and just hypothetically say the money grew at 7%, just the old rule of 72, money growing at 7% will double in 10 years, so that million becomes $2 million at age 70. Meanwhile, they’ve had the pensions for all these years, from 60 all the way up through 70. They had to start taking their Social Security at least no later than age 70, and now they have these RMDs that have to start coming in as well.
Kevin Kroskey: At $2 million, round numbers, it’s about 4% that they have to start pulling out in those required minimum distributions. So not only do they have the pension income hitting their tax return, but now they have the Social Security income hitting their tax return. And in this example, they have $80,000 of required minimum distributions hitting their tax return. This is where that rule really has gone awry for a lot of people, because these people that have done maybe better than what they foresaw, they’re putting money in the 401(k)s and IRAs earlier in their career and saving money at whatever their tax rate was at that time. They kept doing better, making more money, having more advancements, and their tax rate got higher, but as they kept doing that, and then they get in retirement and they’re in the same tax bracket and maybe even one that’s even going to be higher when those RMDs come in down the road.
Kevin Kroskey: That’s the trap that really catches a lot of people that have done quite well for them. They have that money, and those required distributions at some point down the road are going to push them into a higher tax bracket. That’s something that we’ve seen time and time again for clients like the Successful Smiths, and it doesn’t have to be that they were private industry and a schoolteacher. I mean, we have a lot of different clients with a lot of different situations. But usually you have one spouse that was doing really well and making a fair amount of money, although frankly, as I say that, I can think of almost a handful of spouses where both husband and wife made about the same amount of money. Both did really well, and allowed them to save a lot more as well. So you can’t really stereotype, but those are some of the characteristics that we’ve seen.
Kevin Kroskey: I pause for a moment. Everything that we’ve talked about so far is kind of consistent with the tax rates that were in effect for 2017 before, where there would be this, “Oh man, hey, I’m in retirement, and I’m in the same tax bracket that I was before. Once I have to start taking these required minimum distributions, I may be in a higher tax bracket, and that’s scary to me. So hey, what do I do? I thought I did everything right, but it looks like it’s planning out kind of wrong.” Well, there’s a lot of things you can do, but we really have a gift, I think, that was delivered, maybe a little bit late for Christmas last year. The tax law was passed after Christmas but before New Year’s, but this tax law that was passed is quite a gift, particularly for people that fall into this Successful Smith category, and here’s why.
Kevin Kroskey: In 2017, you reached the 25% tax rate at about 75,000 of taxable income. It didn’t take all that much to get there. In 2018, you can have taxable income all the way up to $315,000, and you’re at a 24% rate. Let me say that again for a moment, because first time I heard that, I didn’t believe it either. 2017, you reached a 25% tax bracket at about 75,000 in taxable income. 2018, you’re only at 24% all the way up to 315,000.
Walter Storholt: Wow.
Kevin Kroskey: So not only have the rates … I know. Walter, your “Wow” that I just heard in the background, that’s what I said, but there might have even been an expletive that I said after I actually saw the tax tables.
Walter Storholt: We don’t have to answer to the FCC on a podcast, but I still thought we’d keep it family friendly.
Kevin Kroskey: Yes. Yes, we are very family friendly here. So I couldn’t believe it, but all these people that are really at risk of being in a higher tax bracket in retirement, that’s changed. Over the last, I don’t know, say 10 years or so, I did a lot of educational classes, and part of the class was we would talk about this and talk about taxes in retirement. I would always survey the class, and I would ask them just to raise their hand if they thought tax rates were going to be higher in the future. You would uniformly get like two-thirds, maybe even more than that, like three-quarters if not more, of the people raising their hands that they thought tax rates were going to be higher in the future.
Kevin Kroskey: I think I probably had two people that said rates are going to be the same, and I had one person, one person out of probably about 1,000 or 1,200 people that came to these different educational workshops over the years, raised their hand and said that tax rates were going to be lower in the future. Walter, that one person is right.
Walter Storholt: Oh, wow.
Kevin Kroskey: But only from 2018 through 2025, because in 2026, current law has tax rates reverting to what they were under prior law, and that’s just the way that they had to pass the tax reform. It couldn’t add more than a certain amount to the budget deficit, where the Republicans had to get the cooperation of Democrats, which nobody has cooperation in DC anymore. So they had to pass it through something called budget reconciliation, and basically, these tax rates are going to sunset in 2026. So that one person that I had out of those 1,100 or 1,200 over all those years turned out to be right. I never would have believed it, but it is an incredible gift. Again, you have a 24% tax rate all the way up to 315,000 in taxable income.
Kevin Kroskey: So the major strategy for the Successful Smiths is really looking to de-risk the tax time bomb that’s sitting in those tax deferred accounts, the IRAs, the 401(k)s, the 403(b)s, and paying tax at today’s known likely, very likely I would say, lower tax rate and getting it over into a Roth IRA. The means by which you do that is called a conversion. A lot of times these people made too much money to go ahead and make a contribution, a different C word for a Roth, a contribution to a Roth IRA; however, there’s no income threshold that you have to meet to go ahead and do a conversion and move some of the money from those yet-to-be-taxed accounts into a tax-free Roth IRA.
Kevin Kroskey: If you can do that, and if you can do it today, at say a 22% rate, and we have a lot of clients, I can think of about a handful that we’re doing tax work for just in the last week, looking at this and say, “Okay, hey, when you guys both get in your 70s.” I had one specifically where both of them were going to be starting required distributions in 2026, the exact wrong year that you want to be doing that, because that’s when the rates revert. And in their case, with just some straight line projections on growth in the IRA accounts, with pensions for both husband and wife, and with sizable Social Security benefits for the two of them, their income when they got to 2026 was going to be somewhere around 230, $240,000.
Kevin Kroskey: If we were in 2017, their tax rate at minimum would have been 28%. Because of something called the alternative minimum tax, it would have been more likely to be 32.5%. But literally, this year they can pay 22%, 24%, moving some of that money from the yet-to-be-taxed account into the tax-free Roth IRAs. You may say, “Well, okay, I get that it’s a lower rate, but why exactly would I want to do that?” It gets pretty complex, but you can really distill it down to one simple fact. If you can pay a lower rate today than what you would otherwise pay in the future, when you have to take that money out like from a required minimum distributions, you are going to create more spendable, more after-tax wealth for you or for your children or the grandchildren by paying that lower tax rate today. It may appear that you have less money, but remember, some of that money that’s in those IRAs, in the 401(k)s is yours, some of that money is Uncle Sam’s. He just hasn’t got his hands on it yet.
Walter Storholt: It’s amazing to see the different movements on such a large scale, like these major tax implications and changes and how they can impact us on such a small individual basis. When you see these things in the news, sometimes it’s hard to see it filter down to impact you uniquely in a one-on-one way. But tax rates adjusting are certainly one way that that connection can be made directly from a top level decision down to your everyday life. And it does sound like, my biggest takeaway from this is the gift of time, in that we actually have several years to make the proper moves, analyze our situation.
Walter Storholt: That doesn’t mean we should wait several years and now start thinking about it, but we can have several years to start making the moves and begin the process to take advantage of lower tax rates, especially, this sounds especially important for somebody who’s just approaching retirement here in the near future, maybe just recently retired, because the closer you butt up to those required minimum distributions, which is, what, 70-1/2, if you’re in the Successful Smiths category, the more and the faster it’s going to impact you. Am I reading that correctly?
Kevin Kroskey: You are. You know, if we segment it into working and not working, generally those that aren’t working, they’re going to retire at some point, maybe in their late 50s or more likely in their 60s, and if somebody’s retiring on average in their early 60s, they have nearly a decade to do smart proactive tax planning to maximize their spendable wealth, to play some good defense, pay tax at a lower rate today than what they’re otherwise likely to pay in the future. And there’s a whole slew of other things that we didn’t talk about. But as your income gets higher, your Medicare premiums can get higher. You can pay a higher tax rate on your trust or your brokerage account income, from something called the net investment income tax.
Kevin Kroskey: There are strategies where you may want to locate certain assets in certain account types, which if you’re in a high tax bracket and have a fairly long time horizon, for some of the assets can add a significant amount of wealth every year. If you’re charitably inclined, that’s really different now in 2018 than what it was in 2017, and there’s some smarter ways to do that and make the most out of your charitable gifts on a tax basis. There’s just so many things that go into this, and literally, it’s quite complex. Everybody’s different. If you have somebody that really wants to make sure that they have a comfortable life, that they can do the things that they want to do, maybe give some money to churches or charities that they support, maybe even some money to their kids while they’re living, they may have one strategy. Where for another client, maybe they don’t have kids, or maybe they have kids, but they want to give more money to charity when they’re gone.
Kevin Kroskey: You can come up with so many different situations, and the strategies can be quite different. Now, this is going to sound really boring to many that are going to hear this, but we’re kind of in the throes of tax projection season right now, and because the rules are completely different this year than what they have been in years prior, I mean we’re just going through these cases, and you have to have a fresh set of eyeballs on them and say, “Wow. Hey, this really is different than what we would do in a prior year, but this makes sense for this client for all these reasons now.” We really have to rethink things for everybody, and some of the strategies we found maybe would only apply to, say, the Successful Smiths in the past. Now also they may be applying to the Modest Millers in this new tax regime.
Kevin Kroskey: So you always got to put your thinking cap on when you’re looking at this, but the thing that I love about this, this is like, you can’t say “guaranteed” in my business, but this is a sure-fire way. I don’t know if that really passes compliance guarantee, sure fire.
Walter Storholt: I don’t think that passes the bar.
Kevin Kroskey: But we’ll have a disclaimer at the end of the podcast anyway, so there we go. But this is a very highly reliable way to go ahead and make smart decisions, save money, if not today, certainly over time, because you’re paying a lower tax rate today than what you’ll likely pay in the future. And everybody knows that our government has budget deficits. I mean, they keep growing. We only make money … I say “we” … our government only makes money from taxes. There’s a lot of different taxes, but income taxes comprise the majority of this. The baby boomers are getting older. There’s more and more that are retiring. There’s less and less people paying into Social Security, compared to those that are pulling money out.
Kevin Kroskey: We’ve all heard these things for a long time, and the problem is only getting worse. So at some point, this problem is going to come home to roost, and our leaders, I use that term loosely, down in Washington are going to be forced to take action. Now, the bad thing is, the longer they wait to take action, the more severe the corrective action is going to be. David Walker was the Comptroller of the Currency, basically the CPA for the government, for a period of years, and he wrote a book. I can’t remember what the title was. And he was on a speaking tour for years, really a mission, just trying to get people aware and take proactive action.
Kevin Kroskey: Basically, he said he quit the job, he resigned his position, because it was so depressing. The math was so clear, the tax rates had to rise substantially to go ahead and pay for these different programs, and nobody was doing anything about it. I remember him doing his mission, basically a decade ago, and really nothing’s been done since then. In fact, we have lower tax rates now. So if anything, this is really going to compound the problem of our deficits and paying out for these different entitlement programs like Social Security, like Medicare and Medicaid. And again, if the way that the government gets their money is from taxes, it’s almost unbelievable, and this may be that reason why only that one person out of those thousand or more was actually right about lower rates in the future, but we have a gift here.
Kevin Kroskey: Now, I don’t know if this will be a gift when we look at it in the rear view mirror down the road, but frankly, I mean we have rules ahead of us. We know what they are. We can take actions and steps to go ahead and make the most out of what we have, to maximize our own wealth, make sure that we don’t leave a tip with Uncle Sam. And hey, if we want to be more generous, we can take our money, we can give it to causes that we can support. You can even leave a tip with Uncle Sam if you want to, but most people don’t want to do that. They want to have choice and control over their money. They want to go ahead and pay their fair share, but not any more. And there’s no better time to do it than 2018 through 2025, particularly for people that have done quite well.
Walter Storholt: So Kevin, to kind of put a bow on the conversation from part one and now part two of retirement rules gone awry, planning to be in that lower tax bracket in retirement and analyzing why that may or may not be the case for your particular situation, what’s the tangible steps that someone can take if they’re not quite sure what side of the fence they’re going to land on, the proper ways to implement some of the things we’ve talked about on today’s podcast? It can all be very overwhelming when you start considering, and you touched on this in the last podcast. Do I talk to my CPA about this? What is the financial advisor’s role through this entire equation?
Walter Storholt: I’ve Googled X, Y, and Z, and it’s told me to do this, that, and the other. How do you balance all of those different pieces of information and advisors or advice-givers, for lack of a better term, and take some tangible first steps, but also making sure that they are the proper first steps?
Kevin Kroskey: Yeah. A big part of our job is to really cut through the noise. I mean, with the internet, there’s so much information that’s out there, but is it good information, or does this information apply to me? Or hey, this makes sense, and that makes sense, but I’m not sure how you connect the dots and integrate the two. Really, those are the things that we do. The three core services that we provide for people are retirement planning, investment management, and tax planning, and integrating all that together into an effective strategy for them, making sure that they can retire, maintain their lifestyle, keep on track, and what have you.
Kevin Kroskey: The other thing that I’ll just mention quick tangentially, the taxes are related to what we call your cash flow or the amount of money that you’re spending. If you don’t understand taxes, we’ve found that it’s often a good shot that somebody’s retirement plan is going to be off the mark. You need to understand it. You know, we have a lot of different advisors that are out there. Some are good, or some are well-intentioned, but if they don’t understand all these three key areas and know how to tie it all together, you’re throwing a dart at the dartboard, and hopefully you’re hitting that bullseye, but you’re leaving a lot to chance.
Kevin Kroskey: Somebody like us, I’ll do a shameless plug here, frankly we are a little unique. Most advisors do not deal with tax. Most CPAs certainly do not give individual tax planning for clients. They tend to work more so with the big business owners that can afford them for that kind of work. Then even if the CPA is doing it, they don’t know what your retirement plan looks like, and they’re not taking a multiyear approach to going ahead and maximizing your wealth over time. That’s what we do.
Kevin Kroskey: This is really something that I get excited about. Hopefully, it came about in the podcast. I know taxes can be just a little bit dry, but whenever you can add a tremendous of value like you can through here, I mean, literally, you can go ahead and have somebody retire a couple years early with a smart distribution strategy that’s going to result in lower taxes throughout retirement. You can have them spend a lot more money, and a lot of times people have a comfortable lifestyle, and they don’t necessarily want to spend more, but it allows them to maybe give more to churches or to charities that they support, or help their kids when they’re in their 30s or help their grandkids get through college, and actually see the benefit of that while they’re still living, rather than just leave a big lump sum while they’re gone.
Kevin Kroskey: So there’s all kinds of benefits that people realize from doing this. It is a little bit complex, but if you have a good advisor that can cut through the noise, that can show you the clear and tangible benefits of this and can tie it all together, then you can make a smart decision on what makes most sense for you and then what you’re going to do with the benefits that you’re going to get out from following that smarter way to do it.
Walter Storholt: I liked how you said that twice there, cut through the noise. And if you need a team that’s really good at that, you can talk to Kevin Kroskey and the team at True Wealth Design by going to the website, truewealthdesign.com. Click on the Are We Right for You Button to schedule your 15-minute call with an experienced financial advisor on the team. That’s truewealthdesign.com. Click on Are We Right for You. You can learn more information about the team on that website, as well as listen to past episodes of the podcast. It’s all at truewealthdesign.com.
Walter Storholt: And you can always call the team directly at (855) TWD-PLAN. That’s (855) 893-7526. Get in touch, have a conversation about your situation, what can improve going forward, especially this tax angle. So, so important to make sure that you’re properly preparing for that tax future, whether you’re a Modest Miller or a Successful Smith or somewhere in between, a mishmash of the two, because those are out there as well. Make sure that you’re getting the right kind of plan for your situation. That’s what it ultimately comes down to. Don’t forget, truewealthdesign.com. Go there now, or (855) TWD-PLAN, the number to call.
Walter Storholt: Kevin, thanks for taking us through two parts of this great conversation about another retirement rule gone awry. We’ve taken a lot of these rules over the last several weeks and kind of broken them all down, and this was certainly a big one.
Kevin Kroskey: Yeah. No, I enjoyed it. If somebody actually listened to all of these, it really kind of distills down to what the retirement planning process looks like. And then one final note, we’re here just before Thanksgiving recording this. When we get into December, we’ll actually have a little button on the website where anybody that wants a free report on Plan Smarter for a Lower Tax Retirement can go ahead and click on that and receive that. And we actually have a book coming out here soon, which is an extension of the paper that I wrote. That’s going to be a little bit more on the topic. So any clients, just shoot us an email, we’ll be happy to get that to you. If you’re not a client, and you’d like some more information, just go to the website and go ahead and click for the report.
Walter Storholt: Very cool. Again, that’s www.truewealthdesign.com. For Kevin Kroskey, I’m Walter Storholt. Thanks so much for joining us. We’ll talk to you on the next podcast. This is Retire Smarter.
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